Cap. XII: Placeus's duplex reply — being and dying in Adam without immediate imputation
Yet we were in Adam two ways, Daubuz says — ἁπλῶς and κατὰ μέρος, representatively and naturally. Whole human nature was in Adam without doubt (so Thomas on Romans 5, lecture 3 near the end: we were in Adam by bodily substance and by seminal reason); and in Adam the person sinned, so nature was guilty of the fault then done and of the punishment to come. First: Placeus is not arguing here but answering. Is that answer true or false? If true, they are not 'deceived by deceiving.' If false, the falsehood should have been shown. The learned man does not show it. Inside Placeus's reply there lay a double argument — one from existence, one from death. From existence: we are not said to have sinned in Adam otherwise than to have been in him. But we are not said to have been in him by imputation; his being is not imputed to us — it is only propagated into us. Therefore we are not to be said to have sinned in him by imputation either, but by a real sharing of his sin through natural propagation. Again: we did not sin in Adam otherwise than we were in him. But we were not in him immediately, only through intermediate parents descended from him. Therefore we did not sin in him immediately, only through our parents' original vices descended from him. From death: we are not said to have sinned in Adam otherwise than to die in him. But we die in him not because his death is imputed, but because death is actually propagated into us. Therefore we sinned in him not by imputed sin, but by sin actually propagated into us. Does the learned man prove or answer anything that breaks or even weakens arguments of this kind? Nothing at all.
Latin
Atqui in Adamo fuimus dupliciter ἁπλῶς & κατὰ μέρος, scilicet repraesentative & naturaliter; tota quidem natura humana, quae citra dubium fuit in Adamo (ut ait Thom. in cap. 5. ad Rom. Lect. 3. circa finem; Nos fuimus in Adamo secundum corpulentam substantiam & secundum seminalem rationem) & per personam peccavit in Adamo, rea fuit & culpae tunc commissae & poenae futurae. Primum non argumentatur Placeus, sed respondet. Est-ne igitur illud quod respondet verum, an falsum? Si verum, non fallendo falluntur. Si falsum, falsitas ostendenda fuit. Id quod a viro docto non fit. Latebat autem in responsione illa Placei duplex argumentum, unum ab existentia, alterum a morte. Illud sic potest concipi; Non aliter in Adamo peccasse quam fuisse dicimur. Atqui in Adamo non dicimur fuisse imputative; eius enim esse nobis non imputatur: sed tantum eius esse in nos est propagatum. Ergo nec peccasse dicendi sumus in Adamo imputative, sed reali peccati eius per propagationem naturalem communicatione. Item sic; Non aliter in Adamo peccavimus quam fuimus. Atqui non fuimus in Adamo proxime seu immediate, sed mediantibus parentibus nostris intermediis ab eo propagatis. Ergo non peccavimus in Adamo proxime seu immediate, sed mediantibus parentum nostrorum ab eo propagatis originalibus vitiis. Argumentum vero ductum a morte, sic potest formari. Non aliter in Adamo peccavisse quam mori dicimur. Sed morimur in Adamo, non imputata nobis Adami morte, sed morte reapse in nos propagata. Ergo peccavimus in Adamo, non imputato eius peccato, sed peccato reapse in nos propagato. Probat-ne, aut respondet aliquid Vir doctus, quod hujusmodi argumenta destruat, aut aliquomodo infirmet? Nihil prorsus.
About this text
New English, free to read. Open any section below.
English follows the locked 1661 Saumur Latin of Capita I–XIV partial through Man. Post. Caput IX (eph-ho / eph-ho pantes) before eph-ho / eph-ho pantes, reconstructed from IA PDF page images with Vision OCR and pdftotext as check. No modern English was copied. Cap. IX deepen+ remain.
Catalogue & scope
IA deimputationepri00lapl. Densify: Capita I–XII + Caput XIV + Man. Post. Cap. II–VI through Cap. X Rom. 5:14 tip. Not whole Disputatio; Cap. X Rom. 5:14+ / ~494 pp Disputatio remain.
Witnesses
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput Primum tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Checked print IA Text PDF tip-page extract of Caput Primum (Latin)
- Checked print IA DjVu OCR of the 1661 volume (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput II probable arguments I–VII (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput III necessary arguments (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput IV tip through Garissoles distinction (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput IV remainder through Drelincourt (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput V Distributio + Caput VI tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VI remainder Maresius args I–VIII (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII tip Garissoles through Rivetus (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII rest after Rivetus tip through Garissoles consequent confession (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII §.6 causes-argument through Sed pergamus (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII Denique / σκοπῷ–verbis tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII Accedamus ἐφ᾽ ᾧ / aorist / lexicography tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII Ad alias rationes Prima–Tertia tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII Praeter aberrationem through Christ–Adam close (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII Quarta ratio through Sed pergamus (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VII Quinta & ultima ratio through p.70 return (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VIII opening through Rom. 5:15 gift reductio (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VIII Calvin p.20 through hereditary-corruption close (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VIII Ex vs.16 through Chamier disertius close (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VIII IV Ex vs.17 through V Ex vs.18 Pelagius dilemma close (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput VIII VI Ex vs.19 through Chamier/Martyr close before Caput IX (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput IX opening through roses reductio before Responsio secunda (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput IX Responsio 2 through Melchizedek close (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput X opening through Garissoles first ratio before alteram (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput X Theologorum auxilium through Bellarmine retorsion before Christi justitia (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput X Superest ultima through Placeus reply before Caput XI (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput XI Pelagian/Socinian/Remonstrant alienation before Caput XII (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput XII Daubuz antecedent/immediate open before v.19 (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput XII Tranfit vers. XIX Rom 5:19 / Chamier / Blancus before Cap. XIV (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Caput XIV Nullam extare / Manuscriptum posterius Cap. I before Cap. II (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. II §XIV Garissoles primi peccati naming / Placeus bile reply before duplex question (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. II Status Questionis before §III (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. II §III Garissoles fourfold / actualis (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. II duplex Immediata/Mediata before §XIX (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. II §XIX Tum in nomine before Deinde habitus (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. II GAR Deinde habitus before Posterior quaestio (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. II Posterior quaestio de poena before Cap. III (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. III Observata quaedam before Cap. IV (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IV Rursus observata through Prima ratio (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IV GAR Cameron–Amyraut vita promissa (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IV GAR Cameron–Amyraut vita promissa (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IV Tertia GAR three rationes (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IV Noli/Quarta/Quinta (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IV GAR 2 Quinta / Sexta tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IV GAR Ultimo / PLAC / GAR 2-4 tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IV GAR Denique / Vir Doctus threefold tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Caput V quid sit imputari tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Caput VI Examen Cap. IV tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI GAR 4 tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI Isaiah 55 / Subjungis tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI Chamier tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI Placeus replies tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI foedus-condition tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI GAR erotema 4 tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI GAR erotema 5 tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI GAR erotema 6 tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI infants/Confessio/Pighius tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI generative-faculty quarrel tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI last-end / pleasure-vs-generation tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI original-stain syllogism tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI poena/permission/natural-propagation tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI judgment-locution tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VI Calvin Tertio tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII first courtier similitude tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII separability/judicial tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII penalties/meritorie tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII sons/Deut 24 tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII magist/power-vs-justice tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII second similitude Thomas/body tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII GAR Augustine/representation tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII 3rd similitude King/war tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII God-as-judge/Abraham tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII GAR Ezek 21 / just-with-unjust (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VII Quarto/Quinto close (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VIII OT tree interdict open (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VIII Hypognosticon / interdict silence (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VIII sentence / common-penalty (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VIII personal words / quia paruisti (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VIII Gospel promise / seed of woman (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VIII death-reply / Ps 32 (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. VIII Abraham / OT close (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX Rom 5:12 open (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX four proofs (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX name-distinctions (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX GAR/Beza (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX GAR Cap. VII § IX (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX GAR Cap. VIII Resp. 1 (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX PLAC vs GAR 3 (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX imputatum-est reductio (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX three senses of imputation (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
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- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. X Rom.5.13 open tip (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
- Copy-text Locked Latin, Man. Post. Cap. IX omit/death dilemma (Saumur 1661) (Latin)
This is an AI-assisted study translation. Source fidelity and completeness have not been independently certified. Open Latin on each section (or the Latin source witness link) for the source text. This is not a complete critical edition.