What is the relationship between Christians on earth and the saints in heaven?
Earliest statement of each found so far: Asking the saints to pray for us, Asterius of Amasea, c. 405; The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked, Augustine of Hippo, c. 430.
What the early Church said, in their own words →
- Oriental Orthodox placements rest mainly on Coptic and Ethiopian church texts. The Armenian texts checked so far are brief, and Syriac and Indian Orthodox texts are not yet checked.
a passage teaches it a passage rejects it authorship uncertain defined after this timeline ends
Remembered as examples onlyReformedBaptist4 reject it · Confession 1646 →
The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invokedLutheran1 teaches it · 3 reject it · Confession 1530 →
Asking the saints to pray for usCatholicOrthodoxOriental Orthodox2 teach it · 1 rejects it · Defined 1563 →
The positions
Remembered as examples only ReformedBaptist
What it holds: The saints are remembered as examples of faith; no claim is made that they pray for us, and they are not to be addressed in prayer.
Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to him alone; not to angels, saints, or any other creatureWestminster Confession of Faith, 21.2 (1646)
Formally defined: Westminster Confession, 21.2 (1646)
No early passage in the works searched so far states it yet.
The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked Lutheran
What it holds: The saints in heaven pray for the Church in general, but Christians should not call on them or ask their help.
concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in generalApology of the Augsburg Confession, XXI.9 (1531)
But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the MediatorAugsburg Confession, Article XXI (1530)
Formally defined: Augsburg Confession XXI (1530); Apology XXI (1531)
Earliest statement: Augustine of Hippo, c. 430
Asking the saints to pray for us CatholicOrthodoxOriental Orthodox
What it holds: Departed saints pray for the living, and it is right to address them directly and ask for their prayers.
the saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers to God for men; that it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke themCouncil of Trent, Session 25, On the invocation of saints (1563)
Notwithstanding, in [our] prayers and supplications unto Him, we say the Saints are intercessors, and, above all, the undefiled Mother of the very God the WordConfession of Dositheus (Synod of Jerusalem), Decree 8 (1672)
We reply that we do not pray to the saints; we only ask their prayers and their support for us.Pope Shenouda III (Coptic Orthodox), Comparative Theology (1988)
Formally defined: Council of Trent, Session 25 (1563); Synod of Jerusalem (1672)
Earliest statement: Asterius of Amasea, c. 405
Common ground
These are affirmed by more than one position, so a passage saying only this counts for none of them.
- The saints are honoured and remembered as examples of faith (Augsburg XXI: 'the memory of saints may be set before us')
- Living Christians should pray for one another
- Christ is the one mediator between God and humanity
- Feasts or remembrance of martyrs on their days
Every deciding passage, earliest first
Asterius of Amasea, c. 405
Thus a father or mother, taking up a sick child and embracing it, passes by the clinics and doctors and flees to help that needs no skill; and coming to one of the martyrs, she presents her petition to the Lord through him, using such cries toward the go-between: 'You who suffered for Christ, intercede for suffering and sickness. You have boldness; use your voice for your fellow-servants. Even if you left our life behind, you still know the sufferings of humanity; you too once called on the martyrs before you became a martyr. Then you sought and received; now that you have, give. As your prize…
- Rejects: Remembered as examples only
- Rejects: The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked
- Teaches: Asking the saints to pray for us
Asterius of Amasea, c. 405
For our prayer is not sufficient to move God in the time of necessity or misfortune, for our plea is not a persuasion, but a remembrance of sins; therefore we fly to the fellow-servants who are loved by the Lord, so that they might heal our defects through their own achievements. What then is the charge, that while honoring martyrs we ourselves strive to please God? What accusation is there in flying to protectors? Let us examine also these things, if the accuser cleanses the charge. And how can it be said, that you do not honor myriads of dead men, but worship them as gods?
- Rejects: Remembered as examples only
- Rejects: The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked
- Teaches: Asking the saints to pray for us
Asterius of Amasea, c. 405
Another, hastening to a marriage, makes the prayer in the martyr-shrines a prelude to the bridal chambers; and someone rushing to a voyage does not first loosen the moorings of the ship, before he invokes the Lord of the sea through the martyrs; and for the poor and the needy, they have gained a common table and food, the rest of the martyrs; and the martyrs are sung of throughout the earth and the sea. Appropriately and according to their worth. For not as many do the righteousness correctly...
- Rejects: Remembered as examples only
- Rejects: The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked
- Teaches: Asking the saints to pray for us
Asterius of Amasea, c. 405
The martyrs are not respected even for the greatness of the miracles. Instead, people call them many-maned, and their tombs and their resting places are named as such, and they cleanse themselves as if rubbing against a contagion, not even mentioning that God-breathed saying praised by every mouth: 'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints' (Psalm 116:15). Therefore, let us pray to God, and let us call on the martyrs to implore our common Master, so that a spirit of compunction may be given to those acting under the error of heresy, and the division may be loosed like a div…
- Rejects: Remembered as examples only
- Rejects: The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked
- Teaches: Asking the saints to pray for us
Augustine of Hippo, c. 430
63:16). If such great patriarchs did not know what was happening to the people begotten from them—the very people promised from their stock to those believing in God—how do the dead mix themselves into the affairs and actions of the living, to know and help them? How do we say that those who died before the evils came which followed their death were spared, if even after death they feel whatever happens in the calamity of human life? Or perhaps we say these things in error, and think those are at rest whom the restless life of the living disturbs? What then is this, that God promised the most…
- Rejects: The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked
- Rejects: Asking the saints to pray for us
Augustine of Hippo, c. 430
memorial shrines of martyrs, this seems to me to benefit the deceased only in this way: that by commending him also to the intercession of the martyrs, the affection of prayer for him may be increased.
- Rejects: Remembered as examples only
- Teaches: The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked
Augustine of Hippo, c. 430
Why should we not believe that these angelic operations happen through the dispensation of God's providence, who uses both good and evil well, according to the unsearchable depth of his judgments? Whether the minds of mortals are instructed by them, or deceived, or comforted, or terrified—as mercy is to be offered to each one, or punishment inflicted, by him to whom the church not in vain sings of mercy and judgment. Let each person take what I say as he will. If the souls of the dead were present in the affairs of the living, and they themselves spoke to us when we see them in dreams—to say n…
- Rejects: The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked
- Rejects: Asking the saints to pray for us
Cyril of Alexandria, c. 444
Beloved, a timely occasion has arisen to bring remembrance of good martyrs. This remembrance imitates the celebration of the heavenly orders, for the intercession and salvation of our souls. So all of you who know God, stretch out your ears here today, so that you may be deemed worthy of the prize of the martyrs now being spoken of. For these are the ones we must praise and marvel at: they had not yet seen the incarnation of Christ, nor the death of the Immortal One, nor the resurrection from the dead, and yet even before the bodily coming they were his confessors and martyrs.
- Rejects: Remembered as examples only
Translation in progress
Hesychius of Jerusalem, c. 450
It should be believed that he is truly the holy Longinus, the centurion who confessed Christ on the cross, by whose intercession and entreaty may we all be preserved, both those who read and those who hear, in Christ.
- Rejects: Remembered as examples only
- Rejects: The saints pray for the Church, but are not to be invoked
- Teaches: Asking the saints to pray for us
How this was made
Every whole work in the library on 21 October 2026 was searched for this question. Works added since then are not searched yet. The short excerpts on the topic pages (many from Tertullian, Justin, Irenaeus and Ignatius) join the search once their English has been checked against the Greek or Latin original: 94% of them (1,814 of 1,925) have passed that check, and the rest are still held out, so an early witness may occasionally be missing from these lanes. Two AI models from different labs judged each passage against all the positions at once, seeing them only as letters, without names or churches. A third model settled disagreements, and Claude reviewers then checked every deciding verdict against the passage and, for the earliest dates, against the Greek or Latin. A writer's silence is never counted.
The evidence is only as deep as the works searched: 1st century: 5 writers, 2nd century: 23 writers, 3rd century: 22 writers, 4th century: 18 writers, 5th century: 11 writers, 6th century: 5 writers, 8th century: 1 writer. The lanes are redrawn when the search is run again.